A Conversation with Jimmy Nguyen - Transcribed
One of our listeners decided to transcribe the interview we did with Jimmy Nguyen to help those who had trouble hearing some of the parts. Big thanks to Antony for doing this, and we're posting it on Yours on his behalf. He did this voluntarily, but we will find a way to tip him any of the profits made on this post. Thanks Antony! You can watch the full video here:
Transcription: A Conversation with Jimmy Nguyen with the BCH Boys [October 2018]
[22:00] Connor: Oh right, we have a big win for our podcast today (we've been waiting to say that one). We are joined by Jimmy Nguyen from nChain, so thank you Jimmy for joining us.
Jimmy: Happy to be here!
Connor: We're looking forward to this discussion, obviously there's a lot going on in the Bitcoin Cash world. Before we get into all the stuff coming soon, I guess we want to start and [ask] who are you and what's your background? How did you get involved in Bitcoin Cash and what started your interest?
[22:30] Jimmy: Sure, first of all thank you for having me on your show, [we're] big fans of the Beach Boys. Do you call yourself the Beach Boys or the BCH Boys? Or both? Cory: It's a mix. <laughter> Jimmy: I think it's very clever, I like clever words.
Jimmy: So I was an intellectual property and digital technology lawyer for many years, over twenty-one years in the United States. I was a partner at major US law firms, I represented a range of clients, from big multinational conglomerates like the Microsofts and Amazons of the world, to tech startups big and small such as Uber, and a lot of entertainment media, consumer products, retail industry, from motion picture studios to television networks, on a whole range of work in their IP and technology areas.
So I started as a lawyer in the mid-1990's at the boom of the Internet at the time, the last major big technology that I think is affecting the world like Bitcoin and cryptocurrency is now. I did that for a long time, had a very successful career and worked with a lot of big businesses on developing their digital technology strategies.
As part of that, one of my clients was the Canadian business that [became] part of the nChain group. The nTrust, then renamed nCrypt business, which was an electronic money transfer service. And I and[?] my firm at the time handled their IP work and other business work. They started looking at virtual currencies as a faster means to international money remittance, because there's big fees that are charged if you're sending for example money from Canada back to the Philippines, [24:12 inaudible word]. And so they [inaudible] virtual currency inventions, actually we have filed for some patent applications for a virtual currency system they'd been thinking of.
And then when the nChain business got created and Craig was moving from Australia to London for it to be formed, I was doing some assistance from behind the scenes, and then at a certain point there was a conversation about bringing me on board. Because the folks knew that I had been thinking about doing something else – law's a great career but after twenty-one years of it I was getting a little, you know, bored, looking for new opportunities. I'd been approached by a number of people over the years, tech companies or venture capital firms, [but] none of them quite seemed right. And then because nChain was building a significant IP and technology portfolio, one of the needs we had was for someone to help guide the business and commercialization of that. Because a lot of our team here is scientific in nature or they're developers, and we needed to add to some of our business leadership. So I got asked to take on a role, and that's morphed over a period of time as we grew, and now I continue to be one of the key people who leads the growth and expansion of nChain.
Cory: Very nice. You said you started working with Craig a little bit a while back. Could you maybe just explain what that process has been like? Craig Wright, he gets often misunderstood sometimes in the community, and I'm sure it's not his intention to do that. Could you maybe just elaborate, you know, what your involvement with Craig's been like?
[25:52] Jimmy: It's been an adventurous journey! <laughter> You know, I view at as this crazy opportunity, I will say crazy in some ways in all the best means, to be at the very forefront of this amazing revolution with Bitcoin, with somebody, whether you agree with him or not, whether you like him or not....
[interruption in communication] [26:37] Connor: Jimmy, sorry, I think we lost you there. Cory: I think we lost you a little bit. Jimmy: Can you hear me now? Connor: There we go, you're back. Cory: Sorry about that, I think we missed a big chunk of that.
[26:49] Jimmy: [I was going to say] working with Craig is a crazy adventure and I mean that in all of the best meanings of the word crazy. He is provocative, he is, you know, controversial I know. But I had to really take a look at what it is that I believed in, what I believed was the future of Bitcoin and the technology that underlies it. And whether or not, no matter what he says or how he says it, I believed in what Craig's mission is. And the short answer is I do, I have for a while. I do, I still do. But my relationship with Craig has evolved over time, because it takes a while to learn to work with someone like him. You know, when I first started working with him I'll admit, like most people, it can be a challenge understanding what he means, what he's trying to accomplish. And there was a moment, I don't really know exactly when, but there was a moment where [a little light bulb went off] in my head where I started understanding more what he was saying. And then I learned that I had an ability to help translate what was in his head [inaudible] in ways that other people [could understand].
[28:00 inaudible] [28:16] It's not easy, we don't always agree. For those out in the Bitcoin world who think, you know, [I just follow what Craig says], that's totally not true, I have disagreements with him all the time.[inaudible 29:06] We have a good working relationship now [..???..] as his wife tells me all the time. And I think the key to working with Craig is to earn his respect and then you'll do much better.
[29:25] Connor: Great. So maybe if we could walk through the history, I think the first time a lot of people.... You guys stepped on the scene, was it the Arnhem conference back in 2017? Jimmy: Yes.
Connor: And that was kind of the moment where everyone was trying to figure out what are we going to do to scale Bitcoin, right? And immediately. So Craig gives his presentation when Jon Matonis gives him the speaking time. And then a few months later Bitcoin Cash is formed. So I guess, what were you guys thinking around then maybe just a year ago and then maybe take that into what you guys are thinking now, like what was the necessity for Bitcoin in 2017 and have those needs really changed since then?
[30:09] Jimmy: Well, I think you hit the nail on the head. You know, it's always been this scaling challenge. Before the emergence of Bitcoin Cash there was not going to be a clear path to massive scaling of the Bitcoin network, and that's why Craig was so frustrated. You saw that frustration come out in his speech in Arnhem. nChain had been operating mostly kind of behind the scenes until shortly before then when we emerged publicly. We decided it was time to start interacting with the world and start demonstrating what we were doing. He expressed in that speech (probably not in the way I would but in a very Craig way!) why he really felt the time to scale was now, we had to scale and scale big, [30:54] and that was not happening on Bitcoin Core. And what's happened since: So Bitcoin Cash emerged shortly thereafter [on] August 1st 2017. We decided to then support it. We saw it as a very powerful vehicle to restore the original path to Bitcoin to become really truly peer-to-peer electronic cash, you know, because we need to get to bigger blocks, much lower fees, faster transactions. And then also begin the path to restoring opcodes and removing artificial limits that had been placed on a number of the features in Bitcoin Core. So then we threw the full support of our organization behind that. We found allies such as CoinGeek, who's become one of the biggest Bitcoin Cash supporters and miners in the world. And then eventually we started nChain's own affiliated mining operation BMG, in which we mine Bitcoin Cash.
So I look at the emergence of Bitcoin Cash as an amazing thing, a big win for the Bitcoin world. It allowed us, and others who are working in this field, to really, as opposed to fighting against the Bitcoin Core folks, to just go fight FOR something. And I'm a big believer in that. Let's not spend a lot of our time fighting against other people, let's just fight for what we believe and let the market, competition, miners decide.
[32:18] Connor: So I guess taking that to where we are now: Obviously in November there's the Satoshi's Vision client that some nChain folks are working on. Are you confident that the Satoshi's vision client will be the Bitcoin Cash client used by the majority of miners in November?
[32:38] Jimmy: Well, let me correct one thing that you said. We're not calling it the Satoshi Vision coin, because we're not trying to create a separate coin. We're not trying to create a new token, we're not trying to create BSV as something different than Bitcoin Cash. BitcoinSV is simply a new full-node implementation of the Bitcoin Cash protocol. It is another choice for miners. I understand that people get concerned that there could be a chain split. We don't think that.... If there is a chain split we believe we'll be the majority and we believe that any minority chain will eventually die off. And so that we don't think there's going to be a situation where you're going to have what are two variants surviving of Bitcoin Cash.
We're confident miners will make the right choice, because our message is very simple, it's to provide miners the influence, the voice and choice that they always should have had in the direction of Bitcoin. So we are creating BitcoinSV at the request of CoinGeek and we know also other miners are going to be supportive of this. Because, to be frank, we had felt that the direction of Bitcoin for so long had been too driven by developers trying to make paternalistic choices for miners and setting for example block size cap or deciding what opcodes should be in or not, when at the end of the day this is a network that should recognize the value and skin in the game, investment and resources that miners put in to provide the computing power and security. And without them there would be no network, so they should drive the train.
[34:25] Cory: And recently they had the Future of Bitcoin summit in Bangkok, and you were there to represent BitcoinSV. Could you maybe elaborate on some of the critical points that you were making, specifically in regards to the urgency. Connor and I talk a lot about the urgency to scale before the next halving of the Bitcoin reward. Could you maybe just elaborate some of the [important points] that you guys were trying to make.
[34:52] Jimmy: Absolutely, so the message I delivered in Bangkok was the need to create an implementation of the Bitcoin Cash protocol that was and is stable, scalable and secure. Those are our three most important pillars. Stability is important because we don't want to be in a position where developer groups are disagreeing every six months about what feature set to update or change in the Bitcoin protocol. Instead, our message is very simple. Let's restore Bitcoin to its original protocol, version 0.1 essentially of the Bitcoin protocol, and allow it to scale. The reason we want to do that....
[35:37] [interruption in communication] Jimmy: We're losing each other periodically.
So let me start with stability. Why do we want a stable Bitcoin protocol? This is a key part of the BitcoinSV message. We want to restore the original Bitcoin protocol to its version 0.1, allow it to scale. But then when we say lock the protocol we don't mean forever not allowing any changes. We mean allowing it to be stable, much like the Internet protocol has been stable all of these decades – with some evolution, we're at Ipv4. [36:09] But once we restore the protocol to its original state, which we believe is sufficient and capable of enabling the functions we all want to do on Bitcoin, then allow changes to be made only on rare instances when there is really a need for it and really strong consensus for it. As opposed to the situation we're in now where now that developer groups supportive of Bitcoin Cash have freedom from Bitcoin Core, I feel like there's this desire to, you know, everyone thinking, “Okay, what can I add? What can I change?” It's not a place for experimentation, right? Developers I think should be focused on sustaining a stable protocol.
And the reason that's important is we want big businesses to build on top of this protocol: their applications, their projects, their tokens, their smart contract solutions. And any big business needs to invest millions of dollars, a lot of time and a lot of resources to build..... [37:06 inaudible phrase] before they invest in that and commit to those resources, and I know having been a lawyer for a lot of these businesses, they're going to want to know that that platform is not going to change in six months or in twelve months, because it will take them longer than that to build their applications and they're not going to want to commit investment resources to build on that.
An example I can give you is we get approached by companies who want us to help develop solutions. Sometimes they're debating whether to use Bitcoin Cash or some other blockchain platform. And they want us to convince them. One of the things they ask us is, “Well, if I start building on Bitcoin Cash now, am I going to have to change things every six months when there's a protocol [change].” Because that's annoying, it's difficult, it takes a lot of time and resources. So that's why we think having a stable platform is really key. Just like there's a stable Internet protocol upon which businesses can build their websites and applications, mobile apps.... [38:06] So that's first. Second is scalability....
[38:15] [interruption in communication] Connor: Well, let's just take it back a minute, it's working right now. Scalability, I know you mentioned....
Jimmy: Let me start with scalability again. So a big pillar of our BitcoinSV vision is massive scaling of the Bitcoin Cash network now. We announced a desire to start with default blocksize cap at 128Mb, rather than 32Mb which other developer groups want to stay at for the time being. And that's not because Craig or I sat around and just randomly picked a 128 number out of the sky. It's because of an economic imperative [38:55] that is essential for sustaining the Bitcoin Cash network and its miners. In two years, the year 2020, the block reward will cut in half again from its current 12.5 coins to 6.25, and that will happen again a number of years after that [39:13] down to 3.125. And in order for miners to maintain their profitability as the block continues to cut in half, they need to make up the value of that, if not more, in the other revenue stream which are transaction fees. Which will need to diversify and not just payment transactions which are small [inaudible] [39:41] but in higher data premium-type transactions such as tokens, smart contracts. . So we did some modeling at nChain using our business [analysts] to try and estimate what transaction volume, what blocksize needs to be achieved in just two years, 2020, to make up for the value lost by [the halving in the block reward]. We modeled it using different variables, which I actually published in some of the slides [(and actually someone transcribed the speech)], [40:18] And you don't have to agree with the variables, you can play around with them, but the message is clear. We modeled it at what would be BCH price point at US$1,000 or US$5,000 or US$10,000 in two years. We did modeling based on different composition of transactions in a block, different percentages of payment transactions versus smart contracts, token transactions. And we also did it at different fee levels, low, medium and high fee levels, a few levels aren't always consistent. And what we found is that the minimum size a block had to be in two years to replace the value of 6.25 coins ranged from – using these different variables – from 200 or 280 megabytes, all the way up to 30 gigabytes, with somewhere in the middle, you know, looking at anything from 2 gigabytes to 8 or 12 gigabytes [41:23] in size.
No matter which of those scenarios you accept, the message is clear. In two years we have to get to very large blocks, let's just say 6 gigabyte or 8 gigabyte blocks to maintain miner profitability. If you want to get there in two years you have to start the scaling process NOW. You can't keep it at 32 megabytes today and for the next six months and then all of a sudden within a year jump to 4 gigabytes or 6 gigabytes.
In addition, going back to the business point I made earlier, big businesses will only feel comfortable building their applications and projects on a blockchain which they believe will scale. They need bigger transaction volume, they need bigger data size. And [to feel comfortable] if you're an Amazon or you're a big bank and you want to build on Bitcoin Cash, you're going to first look at the capacity. And we need to build the road, create the road so that they can start moving their cars, trucks and freight carriers on it. The road has to exist, it has to be wide enough and big enough.
And that's why scaling has to happen. One, to maintain the economic viability and profitability for miners. And second, to allow big businesses the comfort and confidence that Bitcoin Cash is the blockchain for them to build on. So it's a bit of a chicken and egg syndrome, right? So I totally understand why people say the current payment transaction volume does not justify going to big blocks 128 megabytes. But they're thinking too short-term, they're thinking about immediate payment needs. [43:01] We're thinking about what the network has to be to sustain itself and to thrive in two years and down the road. Unless we start that now it's going to be too late.
[43:13] Connor: [I'm curious], have you met a lot of miners who are opposed to this like setting their own limit, that seems the crazy part to me. I don't see a lot of miners out in public opposed to setting their own limit for example.
Jimmy: I think most of the mining community had not even really thought about whether to change the configuration and change the default blocksize for themselves. Because it's not been a talking point. Other implementations didn't advertise the fact that you could do that, right? And I think miners are so used to, particularly from the years of Bitcoin Core, sort of following what the developer group provides them, right? And that's a paradigm shift we want to make. They shouldn't be just following what developer groups give them. Instead, they are the primary users who sustain the network and they should be driving the train. And so the ones we've talked to, I don't think there's been any real opposition to allowing the miners to set their own default blocksize. I think a lot of them just had never really thought about it until this conversation started happening.
Connor: I feel like when Craig first gave that presentation in Arnhem, that seemed to me the first time too that message was trying to be relayed that miners were supposed to be the stewards of the system instead of Bitcoin Core for example.
Jimmy: Correct, right. [44:36] And what our concern is, as we've tried to work with the other developer groups, is that in maybe a less dramatic way we're concerned that the Bitcoin Cash developer groups were moving back to this thought process where they are dictating what is in the protocol or not. And I think everyone's opinion should be taken into account. But at the end of the day, miners should choose, and that's why miners should choose their own configurations and we really one day shouldn't have a default blocksize at all. We're saying go to 128 now as a path to getting bigger and bigger. But eventually Craig and team here want to just have no limit, right? Because at the end of the day, miners will compete for what makes sense for them. That's how it is, [this is] a competitive market place. And what it emphasizes is a thing that people forget about Bitcoin. People sometimes think so much about its technical points and its technical solutions. But at its core why it works is it's an economic system. There's game theory and economics involved. [45:41] And if you don't honor and understand those economic incentives, and construct the path and the road map to account for them, I think that's where you'll undermine the network. And that's why scaling is so important now. If you don't scale, the block reward halving that's coming in two years and then several years after that is just going to undermine the profitability of the network for miners.
And then finally the last thing I'd like to say [about] Bitcoin SV, and we touched on it in Bangkok, is the need for security. We fully understand that miners, and rightfully so, want to make sure that scaling larger will be safe. And that is why we are taking a number of steps to do what we think is going to be the best and most world-class approach to Bitcoin implementation that's happened to date. We've hired a top-notch outside security audit firm to look at the code, continue testing it. We're developing a world-class quality assurance program. We're unveiling as CoinGeek sponsored a top of the line bug bounty program to encourage responsible disclosure of bugs. [46:58] We've already built a set of seven-staged environments for testing. Steve Shadders and our team here Daniel Connolly[?] have already launched a number of gigablock testnet initiatives, one of which will be public. We have a first iteration already running that's informing some of the decisions were going to make. So security's very important to us and we want to work with miners [47:21] and we want to actually release data to allow miners to be able to make their own decisions about it. So I don't want to discount that, I don't want people to feel that, oh, we're just going to go to big blocks and say it doesn't matter because the network will support it. We fully recognize that it is our responsibility as well as others we're working with in the Bitcoin world to make sure it's safe.
[47:45] Connor: So you mentioned maybe the importance of building on top of the protocol instead of maybe making changes to the protocol. There are a few companies that you guys are involved with that have kind of made it their mission to build on top of the protocol and they're doing some really interesting things I think. The ones that, I mean they all.... I think Centbee just launched Beta, HandCash are obviously about go [into] iOS, they have a great product as well. And then Ryan Charles is doing some crazy awesome stuff with Yours and the Money Button. How have those processes been? And are you looking forward to … this is a dumb question I but... What are you looking forward to most seeing out of them?
Jimmy: It's been really exciting watching all those companies that nChain's invested in. [48:29] I am excited first of all to see the continued enthusiasm of those young entrepreneurs be fulfilled. It's one of the best things about what we do is not just seeing technical product release but just seeing excitement. That's something we don't see for example over on the Bitcoin Core side of the world, which is people building great new applications on a routine basis.
I'm really excited to see Money Button take off, I think that was a very smart strategy shift by Ryan Charles and Yours.org. I think their original business plan and product is good but Money Button I think is a big win as I would say. I think it's going to be a solution that big enterprises will be able to use to incorporate into their websites and applications. So I'm excited to see him advance that and move it into commercial usage, because then he's going to have to start a business development cycle [49:25] to support that.
Centbee, I just downloaded the iOS app when it came out, I'm excited about that because I'm an iOS user. And so I haven't got the HandCash app yet, I'm waiting for it. But with Centbee, you know, we are actually working very closely with them on a variety of things, including not just sort of their long-term roadmap, but as we announced earlier this year they are working with us [to] develop a merchant SDK [software development kit?] I think is the best way to call it for integrators in the payment processing network to make it easier for merchants to accept Bitcoin Cash. And so we are in the planning process of that with them. And so I'm excited for that to come out as well as the expansion of their product, I know they're going to add features to it to add to the merchant ecosystem in sub-Saharan Africa.
[50:18] And then HandCash, well, I can't wait for the iOS app. I'm actually hopping on a plane to Madrid tomorrow, we'll see them briefly. They have a lot of things planned which I can't talk about now, but I know they're going to unveil at the CoinGeek conference at the end of November, November 28-30th at the Mermaid in Puddle Dock, London. So I can't talk about that too much but I can tell you they've got some really exciting ideas and they're going to be working closely with us to fulfill them.
The big thing I like amongst all three of them is just enthusiasm. All a great bunch of entrepreneurs, who are a real pleasure to work with and all very genuinely nice well-meaning people who believe very much in the mission of Bitcoin Cash.
Cory: And all these different interfaces and [51:16] software [inaudible], we see it as the next step to professionalizing Bitcoin Cash. What do you see as the very next step? Because obviously it's going to take a while to get to 6 gigabyte blocks, we need that scale. What do you kind of see as the next barrier/obstacle that we need to overcome together?
Jimmy: I'm glad you asked that question, because I think people don't think about that enough, this need to professionalize Bitcoin Cash and to have our ecosystem grow up. It's a point I made in Bangkok. And I think it starts with stabilizing the protocol, right. For Bitcoin to professionalize you need major enterprises to feel confident that this is both a cryptocurrency they want to use as well as a blockchain they wish to build on top of. [52:12] And that requires keeping it stable. It requires I think moving away from a system where developer groups are talking every few months about what feature changes to make or not. Because I don't want to be having disagreements and fights with other developer groups every six months. Miners don't want that, businesses don't want that, none of us want that, right? And instead I think once we restore the protocol, keep it stable, there won't be this need for ongoing developer group conversations except for periodic things. So I think those are stages to professionalizing Bitcoin, it starts with changing our paradigm of what [52:52] the protocol should be and what the role of developer groups should be. Because once we get BitcoinSV out and it's running and we get the feature sets locked in that we want, we don't really want to be bothering it, you know, we just want to leave it that way. And that will I think entice more big enterprises to start building on top of it, and that will help professionalize it. I think the world also needs to move to more commercially supported sets of developers. The Bitcoin world started with lots of volunteers, which is great, right? Donating their time, working in groups. But as we've seen that becomes a challenge because no one wants to leave a full-time job to devote their life for free working for Bitcoin. It's hard to attract the top talent. And there's nothing wrong with that, a lot of open source projects use commercially driven teams from companies that provide developers or developer groups to support open source projects.
And by the way I want to make that point very clearly, that BitcoinSV is released, or will be released, under the MIT Open Source license. And so I think as big enterprises start feeling comfortable using the Bitcoin Cash blockchain, they will probably start contributing developers to it. And I think that will help, because that's been a challenge, keeping people consistently working in developer groups, [54:20] feeling they're financially supported. We need to solve that, and I think that'll come with more big enterprises working on Bitcoin.
Connor: It's obviously November 28th-30th CoinGeek conference in London. We're excited we're going to be there, first time ever going to London so ...
Jimmy: I'll make sure to take you to a pub and have like four pints. Connor: That's all I need, yeah. Cory: Perfect! <laughter>
Connor: What are you looking to for nChain in November CoinGeek conference? [54:53] [What are you …] I guess just after the fork or during the fork or the whole month. I know in May you guys had a lot of announcements that came out. What's coming down the pipeline for you guys come November?
Jimmy: Well, it's going to be an eventful month, let's just say that! <laughter> It's interesting that the CoinGeek week will be happening just two weeks after the November 15th protocol upgrade date. We'll see what happens, I think it'll be eventful. And we have a lot planned.
[55:22] CoinGeek week is now a week-long event as opposed to just a single day conference, it's really three days. I'll give a [plug] to them since I'm helping them run it and will be hosting and MC'ing the event again. It's November 28th-30th, at the Mermaid which is a theater and conference center – I know it's got a fun name, the Mermaid – and it's in Puddle Dock, London, so it's a bit out of the London center but it's a great venue for an event. The conference will be split over three days, where one day will be focused on application developers. So we'll have people like the HandCash team for example coming out to speak about new features and things they're unveiling because I know a lot of those companies are speaking or will be planning some announcements.
Another day we focus on merchants, because a big part of the CoinGeek conference's message is to try and encourage the emergence of true Bcommerce, Bitcoin commerce, using Bitcoin through merchants and points of sale.
[56:22] And then finally, the last big day will be a day of the future, looking to the future. So in terms of what nChain, what you can expect from nChain there, there will be probably some presentation about BitcoinSV. We'll talk about what the state of that is and what's going on with the development implementations at that time. I know Craig is planning to announce some new work that our team is fiercely finishing to make sure it's all done so he can talk about it. A powerful new use case for Bitcoin Cash, so I won't steal his thunder and let him do that. And then if we are ready we may have some other projects or things [sorted] out. So I'll keep my mouth [shut] beyond that this time to save it for the conference. We hope people come, it'll be a lot of fun and London's a great city. It'll be a little chilly at that time of year, but don't worry, we'll keep everybody warm.
Connor: I think the last thing maybe.... [57:29] I just wanted to ask about just because I'm genuinely curious and we have you here.... You know, maybe I want to take it back to 2017.... What for you, what got you passionate about.... Like what brings you.... For us obviously the passion of Bitcoin comes from the fact that having a new hard money outside of the control of a third party, right? That was always the main selling point. Like what for you drives you to work on Bitcoin every day?
Jimmy: That's a really good question. I think it's two things. I think it's the excitement and opportunity to work at the forefront of what I think is the next major technology leap of our lifetime, it'll impact the world like the Internet did.
[interruption in communication] Connor: Jimmy, I think it's time to stop and start, sorry. Cory: Almost there. Jimmy: Almost there, okay. Connor: I don't know why it happens but we're good.
Jimmy: So what excites me about working in this field is a couple of things. One is the opportunity to work at the very forefront and at the center of the next major technology leap of our lifetime, which I think will impact the world the way the Internet did in the 1990's. And back then, I worked in the world of Internet and digital technology [58:42] as [outside counsel]. Here [I get] the opportunity to right be in the middle of it.
Another reason is empowerment. You know, a lot of us who really believe in Bitcoin believe in its ability to empower people. [58:56] Particularly people in unbanked populations who need access to financial services and inclusion in a way that Bitcoin can provide, that they can't because they don't have bank accounts. And a lot of people believe in Bitcoin believe in its financial sovereignty powers to really allow you to have real control over your money. [59:18] That speaks to me and I think it's because, you know, my whole life I've been an outsider: I was an immigrant to the United States, in a racial minority group and I'm gay. And there's this whole life experience I'd had where I'd always been kind of the outsider to big institutions and the establishment. And so there's something about Bitcoin's ability to give people, no matter who you are, where you come from, the ability to have more control over your life, your finances and what you can do with them, I think that really speaks to me.
And finally, I'll be honest, it's Craig. I have days where what we do is hard. Working for nChain is hard, I know we're not always the most popular kid on the block in the Bitcoin world. Working with Craig is a challenge, and it's tiring, I spend 80% of my life traveling around the world. And I have moments where I say, “Why do I do this?” And I, for better or for worse, I see through a lot of the cloud around Craig's vision [of] Bitcoin, we call now the Satoshi Vision as we're launching BitcoinSV to restore it. I believe in it. He wants five billion people using Bitcoin one day. He wants it to be a source of power and independence for people. I do believe in him, even though it's not always easy to. And more than anything else, that's really important to me. Because this is not just a job, I talk about it with him. This is a life mission he's clearly been on for a long time, and it's a mission I've decided to devote myself to with him and with the rest of our team. And that requires fully believing in what you're doing and who you're doing it with. So for reasons that maybe other people can't see, because they don't interact with him the way I do, I do believe in him. I believe in what he wants for Bitcoin. And I hope that the world will see, as we go about the process of launching BitcoinSV marching towards a massively scaled Bitcoin network, we believe miners will make the right choice, that choice is BitcoinSV.
[1:01:39] Connor: That's great. Do you view that vision as transforming, like you mentioned, Africa? I know you guys were in Africa [recently]. What was your experience like and how do you view that vision transforming countries like Africa?
Jimmy: I fully expect that the first geographic areas that will really benefit from Bitcoin are going to be [developing nations]: South Asia, parts of South America, Latin America, Africa. For those of us who live in Westernized countries like Australia or UK or US – and Bitcoin will come here, but it won't have an impact as quickly as it will in places such as Rwanda where we were at. There's a need for easier financial services for people there where they don't have bank accounts. But with a mobile phone, which they do have, and a Bitcoin wallet on their mobile phone they can transact, they can send money to anyone, anywhere in the world instantly for cheap. They can run small businesses, they can have money lent based upon their Bitcoin holdings which is opening up a world potentially of microloans and that will really I think give people a lot more power over their finances.
So it'll be in places like the Philippines where I've spoken a lot as well. 86% of people in the Philippines do not have bank accounts. And I don't think those of us living in Western world really understand the impact of that. All the things you cannot do in life because you don't have a bank account. Everything then so much harder for it. But with a Bitcoin wallet, and the services that a Centbee or a HandCash could provide one day, I think that'll make their lives so much easier.
Especially for remittance. A lot of people in those countries when they're young they leave to work in other countries to make more money and send back to their families. And they're paying 6-8% of the amounts they send back in remittance fees internationally. But with Bitcoin you could do that for less than a penny from anywhere in the world.
So it's countries like the Philippines, Rwanda that will benefit from this most. In Rwanda one of the conversations we had while speaking was the question of whether Africa should have a single digital currency, a single cryptocurrency. And our answer is Yes, and it shouldn't be some new token someone creates, some new AfricaCoin, it should just be Bitcoin Cash.
Connor: Yeah, well that's great. Jimmy thank you for taking time, I know I'll tell you a lot of people who are new to Bitcoin or Bitcoin Cash – I've heard it for myself – they really enjoy your passion and I think you get people excited about Bitcoin. So thanks for being you I guess and keep that going.
Jimmy: Ah, thank you. Connor: We're looking forward to everything that's happening in November. It'll be a full month of things, so yeah we're looking forward to the CoinGeek conference as well and maybe seeing you there.
Jimmy: Well, you definitely will see me there, and I can't wait to see you there.
And for everyone [who's reading this], at this interesting time in the evolution of Bitcoin Cash, I think the last thing I want to say is [that] I know the emergence of our plans for BitcoinSV has caused some people to be nervous about what will happen with Bitcoin Cash. I want people to know that our vision is for a robust, thriving Bitcoin Cash ecosystem. We believe that's going to happen, we believe that miners will make the right choice. But more importantly, no matter how it all plays out, I want people to know that we are doing this because we believe it's necessary for the viability, sustainability and scalability of Bitcoin Cash. So we can't wait to see how it all works out and we're committed to its success.
Cory: We're very happy to hear that. I'm looking forward to it, too. Connor: Great, well thank you Jimmy for taking the time.
Jimmy: Thank you.
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